國產TCG 創新的機制

psychokiller

pale_moon 发表于 2010-12-31 13:55
如果您一定要挑我毛病的话我没意见~

也懒得辩驳~

好啦
你說新的CCG不能舊有多年的比
那嘛
AEG 要出新的CCG
這跟新的國產CCG 站在同一個起始點
我們到時候來比較機制的好壞吧
This is a summary of information that Todd has given out on the game, I know he's a member here so if he wishes me to remove anything I will. I am really excited over this game so I'm hoping to drum up some hype on BGG. I will update as new info is released. I plan to keep this summary going as long as I have interest in the game. Which I hope will be a long time.

Phase - A new CCG from AEG, the makers of games such as Legend of the Five Rings, Thunderstone and Tomb. Coming Summer 2010, hoping for a July release, with an expansion in the fall.

-The launch will have both one player 30 card starter decks and booster packs.

-Each card has two sides, one good, one evil. So far the only card type is characters.

-Deck standard is 30 cards. However being double sided there will be 60 different cards to play in your deck.

-A character can be paired with multiple opposites. (So for example, a Knight of Duty could be the good side to a World Destroyer OR a Surgeon.)

-Characters can be played on the bridge, in the vault or bound as an attachment. (Characters in the bridge can battle, characters in the vault are used as resources, attached characters boost the stats of the character they are bound to.)

-Characters can be 'phased' by effects which flips them to their good or evil side depending which side was facing up.

-Characters in the vault are phased to be used as a resource, they may be phased more than once in a turn, but not when paying for the same card.

-The stats for characters are attack, defense and zeal. The cards also cover cost, abilities and what they add to a character they are bound to.

-You win the game by gaining 10 influence points in either good or evil. You can focus on just one, or try to gain both.

-The zeal on a character must be higher than that of an opponent's card to use a reaction ability to that card.

-At the end of each turn players add up all the combine good zeal and evil zeal among all theirs card in play, the player with the higher count in each alignment gets an influence point for that alignment.

-When your deck runs out of cards you reshuffle your discard pile and use it as your deck, each time you do this you lose one good influence point and one evil influence point.

-Rarity is not displayed on the cards. As not to reveal what both sides of the card are through rarity. However a spoiler list on the official website will tell rarity.

Here are the cards that have been previewed:

Top left value: Attack
Top right value: Defense
Bottom left value: Cost
Bottom right value: Zeal
Text box: Contains abilities and flavour text. The World Destroyer's ability may only be used when it is played in the bridge, Todd has said that characters will also have abilities that can only be used in the vault.
Bind: The bonus this character gives when bound to another character.

princena

回复 psychokiller 的帖子

难道学魔兽。。直接英雄放外面。。。。。。。那玩崛起吧

princena

回复 pale_moon 的帖子

兄弟，你比我反驳得更狠。。哈哈

zhaoanruo607

P大是卡牌达人啊。。。坐观百家论战。。

uriah

psychokiller 发表于 2010-12-31 11:26
M10 代表第10個版本(或是11) 其實算是11啦...
不是第10年
MTG 是1993年的遊戲

37楼那位兄弟想表述的意思，我觉得很清楚
P兄想来也是桌游达人，但这“永恒之轮都第10版本了，再一版就追上MTG.....”的说法，很容易让普通玩家误会万智也不过出了10个版本吧？然而万智推出到今天，仅仅古典系列已经有了11个版本，每年的大系列，以及每个系列中的小系列，更是有数十个版本。

永恒当然差万智几个档次，但P兄的10版就应差不多追上万智的说法，也欠妥当吧。

psychokiller

uriah 发表于 2010-12-31 23:15
37楼那位兄弟想表述的意思，我觉得很清楚
P兄想来也是桌游达人，但这“永恒之轮都第10版本了，再一版就 ...

那我改用L5R 做比喻
L5R 只有7個版本....
應該說7個環境

psychokiller

princena 发表于 2010-12-31 17:06
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难道学魔兽。。直接英雄放外面。。。。。。。那玩崛起吧

有個CCG叫做
warlord
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord:_Saga_of_the_Storm
你有一個主將
如果主將被殺你就輸了
如後你需要策畫軍隊的陣型
Game playIn Warlord every player takes control of an army with the single objective of killing all the opposing leaders or Warlords. Once that is achieved, the game is won. The simplicity of Warlord comes from the fact that most everything is tested with a single d20 roll. Every check has a target number (TN) which defines how easy the task is to succeed. The player must surpass that TN with a single die roll plus any modifiers.
[edit] Terms

Faction: All armies are aligned with one of the 7 factions. Factions define which warlords can use which characters and usually have a specific play style. The Factions are Elf, Dwarf, Deverenian, Free Kingdoms, Nothrog, The Chosen, and Mercenary. Mercenaries have the unique characteristic of being able to be recruited in to any army.
Warlord: The leader and most important character in your army. He defines your faction and you lose the game if he dies.
Ranks: Warlord is based on a Rank & File system. That means that your army must follow some simple guidelines to stay in formation. This is created by building ranks.
Order: An Order is the action of the player for his turn. Orders may be either those allowed by the rulebook (attack, maneuver) or special Orders printed on a card.
Spend: When a card is used up for this turn, it is turned sideways and is considered spent. Spent cards cannot spend again. A card that is spent becomes ready at the beginning of the next turn.
Stun: Sometimes a card is pushed beyond the spent limits, either by you own actions or by an opponent's. Stunned cards cannot perform actions. A card that is stunned becomes spent at the beginning of the next turn.
Wounds: Wounds are a measure of the damage a character has suffered. Whenever a character is suffering a number of wounds equal to or greater than its hit points, it is removed from the playing area and placed in the discard pile.
Trait: A bold faced word at the start of a text-box classifying a card as something specific (monster, paladin, etc.) or giving it an ability. Factions are specified as traits.

[edit] Types of CardsWarlord uses just four types of cards. Characters, Items, Dungeons and Actions.
CharactersCharacters are the basic building blocks in Warlord. Their main function is to attack your opponents and use the cards in your hand and sometimes they may be used just as expendable meat to slow your opponents down. Players usually place the maximum number of characters allowed in their decks. Characters have a colored border depending on their faction and all five stat slots filled out.
Each character has some statistics which are based on D20 system's terms. Players of Dungeons and Dragons may find them familiar.

Attack (ATK): How easily this character may hit with a melee strike and how many melee strikes he may perform.
Armor Class (AC): How difficult it is for a melee or ranged strike to hit this character.
Level: This is a generic rating of a card's power. Level start from 1 and have no upper limit, though there have been only a few cards that exceed level 9, most of which are related to a special tiered challenge system. Warlords are usually level 5 and cards over level 5 are usually reserved for very powerful characters like Dragons or Overlords.
Alignment: Shows whether a character is good or evil (there is no neutral alignment). Alignment is only used as a restriction or target clause.
Class: There are 4 main classes in Warlord: Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric. Each class has a specific symbol (Gauntlet, Glove, Scroll and Starburst, respectively) along with the simple circle of the classless characters. Classes are used to define what cards a character can use.
Skill: This is a measure of a character's non-combat abilities. Skill is used to perform feats and succeed at saves and checks.
Hit Points (HP): All characters have a damage threshold. Once a character has a number of wounds equal to or higher than his HP he is killed.

Additionally, all characters have a number of traits. The most basic is their Faction but many characters have more traits. The most common traits are:

Feats: Feats are special skills the character is trained in (Stealth, Marksmanship). These are described in the rulebook.
Subclass: Each class has 3 subclasses that are aligned to it. Characters possessing these subclasses gain access to more cards. Example subclasses are Necromancer, Ranger, and Seer. There are also two subclasses (Monk and Mentalist) that are common to all classes. "Subclass",as of the expansion Hero's Gambit, has become an official term of the game. Before it was just unofficially used by the fans of the game to refer to these type of trait.
Unique: Most cards in Warlord allow for multiple copies in play. Players may only bring one copy of a card with the Unique trait into play.
Epic: Warlord allows players to include up to three copies of most cards in their decks. A card with the Epic trait may only be included in a deck once.
Planar: Planar characters can only be hit if the die roll is even. In Fourth Edition Planar replaced Astral and Ethereal. All characters or cards that give either of those traits now have or give Planar.

All characters in the later sets have some kind of ability. These abilities allow for a wide range of strategies, but some are very common.

Ranged Strike: Ranged strikes are the second type of attack available in Warlord. Characters with the ranged strike ability can either attack from the safety of the second rank, or bypass the opponent's defense and strike in his more vulnerable second rank. Many Warlords, especially wizards, rely heavily on ranged strikes.
Movement: Many characters, especially dragons, have some kind of movement ability. Due to the game's rank and file system, innate movement can be very helpful.
Bonus Granting: Bonuses boost the stats of characters in your army in some way.
Entering play effect: These characters have a once per game effect that activates as soon as they enter play. This kind of ability became mainstream with the Sneak Attack expansion.
Leaving play effect: Leaving play effects activate as soon as the character dies. They become common with the Counter Attack expansion.

ItemsThese cards are used to enhance your characters. As the game does not use a resource, items can only be equipped by characters with a sufficient level and rank. Items usually give some kind of stat boost but they are not restricted to just that. Items have a grey border.
Items always have a level and a class. The item's level is its relative power while the class restricts who can use it. Classless items can be used by anyone unless they have restrictions in their text box (such as a specific trait only). Items usually have the Attack or AC stat slots filled out with any bonus (or penalty) they may give.
Characters can equip any number of items with two exceptions: he cannot equip two copies of the same item and, when equipping an item with a trait, he must discard any items with the same trait. Traits on items classify them and define what kind of bonuses (if any) they will provide. That is, a Weapon is expected to grant an Attack bonus but AC bonuses, if any are given, will be low. These are the basic item traits:

Weapon: These items usually provide an Attack bonus and usually some kind of offensive ability. Lately, Weapons that provide extra melee strikes have been made common for the fighter class.
Shield: Shields provide low AC bonuses and some kind of defensive special ability. Original Shields had bug restrictions and as a result players just ignored them. Fortunately, Shields have been fixed in later sets. Shields are commonly combined with weapons to form Two-Handed Weapons. Due to this combination of traits, weapon-shields are usually more powerful.
Armor: Armor gives an AC bonus and usually some kind of protective ability.
Helmet: These items provide low AC bonuses and their abilities may vary depending on the class of the helmet.
Steed: Steeds are the standard way to give movement to characters. Steeds are most common for the Fighter and Rogue classes.
Gauntlet: This is a newer trait of items. Gauntlets may grant a stat bonus but it is not expected. Gauntlets usually grant abilities such as feats.
Bow: Bows are usually used to provide ranged strikes to characters without the ability.
Arrow: Arrows are only used during ranged strikes, enhancing their effect.
Trap Traps are used in reaction mostly to targeting. Their effects usually, spend stun or wound the target of the trap. These are so far exclusive to the Rogue class.
Stance: Stance are a new item trait. The only one so far is represents the Fighter class ability to make extra melee strikes.
Potion Potions a new item trait. The potion is a disposable item that gives bonuses and temporary use of a feat.

ActionsThese represent the surprise element of the game. Most actions have restrictions on who may play them (by level and class or trait) which usually gives them focus. For example, fighter actions are usually enhancing reacts to melee strikes while wizard actions are destructive orders. Actions come in two types: Orders and Reacts. Order actions take an entire turn and usually have a more full effect. Reacts are played on specific triggers, such as attacking, moving, or equipping. Actions usually do not occupy a large percentage of the deck because they tend to clutter the hand. However, an action's power is usually greater than a comparable item's or character's because they are use and discard.
DungeonsIntroduced in the Temple of Lore expansion in late 2006, these cards represent various locations which have a global effect on the game. Dungeons are put into play as an order by any player. Each dungeon has a challenge rating. Any player can defeat a dungeon (discard it from play) by spending a number of character levels equal to or greater than the challenge rating of the dungeon. Dungeons typically have challenge ratings between 4 and 10.
[edit] Deck ConstructionAs in most CCGs, a good deck construction is halfway to victory. Warlord has several restrictions on deck construction to ensure balance.
Restrictions

Each deck must have a minimum of 50 cards.
Each deck must have a Warlord and a minimum of three level 1 characters and two level 2 of the same faction as the Warlord.
There may be no more than 3 copies of a single card.
There may be no more than a single copy of an Epic card.
Any Type of card (Character, Item, Action, Dungeon) may comprise no more than 50% of the deck.
There may be no more than one Warlord and Overlord in each deck.

psychokiller

uriah 发表于 2010-12-31 23:15
37楼那位兄弟想表述的意思，我觉得很清楚
P兄想来也是桌游达人，但这“永恒之轮都第10版本了，再一版就 ...

明年AEG 就要出新的CCG
Phase
等他出的話
我們來看他根永恒之轮第10版本的機制的成熟度吧

psychokiller

faint 发表于 2010-12-30 09:56
三國智一卡制不知道算不是算是創新！~

再補充一下
Blue moon 是一卡制
然後所有補充包裡面的東西都不會重覆
所以你把所有補充包買完所有的卡你都有了
這是不是比較有誠意

而且blue moon的作者還是

Reiner Knizia

psychokiller

本帖最后由 psychokiller 于 2011-1-1 01:32 编辑

princena 发表于 2010-12-31 17:06
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难道学魔兽。。直接英雄放外面。。。。。。。那玩崛起吧

Warlord 我說的那個CCG
是2001年的
他用很多骰子
機本上他是D20 system的延生

所以用骰子三國智還比不過warlord
因為warlord 是一堆判段都用骰子

而且遊戲一開始
玩家就可以用6個角色擺出一個陣型
當然你的領主要擺在最後面
頭銜越低要越靠近前線

當你的領主死掉以後你就輸了
想看看這是不是三國智的最早的主將系統..

裡面個攻擊分2種
近戰攻擊對手最前面的角色
射擊可以攻擊後面的角色

重點是遊戲是沒有資源系統
但這不代表你一下子就可以放大怪
因為你必需要顧到你的陣型
大怪的頭銜通常比較高
所以你直接放大怪在前線
會使整個軍隊的指揮大亂

而且三國智有智力系統
warlord 用頭銜等級,屬性, 職業來決定是否可以安裝裝備使用物品和發動策略
因為當你裝備, 使永策略,你都必需對一個角色下達命令

而且warlord 現在還是LCG

psychokiller

设置某些将领才能成为主将在战役模式有有体现，比如黄巾军就只有张角才能做主将

這個早在warlord 就實現了
warlord 的冠軍賽打完
按名次大家都有機會挑戰overlord
overlord 就是超強Boss啦

uriah

psychokiller 发表于 2011-1-1 00:12
那我改用L5R 做比喻
L5R 只有7個版本....
應該說7個環境

嗯，我只是指出前面的万智牌比喻并不合适，很容易误导新人。

如果是L5R的话，我就不熟悉了。

psychokiller

uriah 发表于 2011-1-1 01:20
嗯，我只是指出前面的万智牌比喻并不合适，很容易误导新人。

如果是L5R的话，我就不熟悉了。

那phase 出了
你會去玩嘛?

uriah

psychokiller 发表于 2011-1-1 01:30
那phase 出了
你會去玩嘛?

phase是什么，永恒的第10个版本么？应该不会，最多买点来研究一下。

psychokiller

uriah 发表于 2011-1-1 01:34
phase是什么，永恒的第10个版本么？应该不会，最多买点来研究一下。

請看41樓

老兄阿
我回帖打的很辛苦
你至少也要看一下

uriah

psychokiller 发表于 2011-1-1 01:36
請看41樓

老兄阿

原来是个新的游戏啊。看介绍说7月就已经出了？
谢谢41楼的介绍。

psychokiller

uriah 发表于 2011-1-1 01:49
原来是个新的游戏啊。看介绍说7月就已经出了？
谢谢41楼的介绍。

是7月不過是2011年

我發那帖的意思是
大家都說國產 CCG 才剛起步
所以不能跟國外已生產多年的CCG 比

那現在我們用剛起步的國外CCG
跟國內已經出10版的 CCG比
這有沒有比較公平一點???

uriah

本帖最后由 uriah 于 2011-1-1 02:17 编辑

psychokiller 发表于 2011-1-1 01:55
是7月不過是2011年

我發那帖的意思是

“. Coming Summer 2010, hoping for a July release, with an expansion in the fall”

笔误？

新厂商的游戏通常都会比历史悠久的厂商推出的产品差些，这里的新厂商更多指的是其中从业人员的经验尚浅。

相反，资深游戏设计师设计的新游戏，则未必和市面上的成熟游戏有太大差距，甚至很可能做得更好。

兄弟你41楼的介绍里提到，“A new CCG from AEG, the makers of games such as Legend of the Five Rings, Thunderstone and Tomb.”

从前面的帖子来看，L5R是你很推崇的游戏。那么拿这款游戏的资深设计者们推出的游戏，来和一个国内相对资历尚浅的游戏团队推出的游戏来对比，是否就很公平呢？

无意讨论孰优孰劣

我也不认为永恒之轮在产品定位和产品设计上做得足够好，更不认为目前的国产TCG有革命性的创新

只是在创新的程度上，很难有清晰的界定。正如魔兽世界卡牌之于万智牌，并没有本质的创新——然而一样有万智玩家去玩魔兽卡牌——

大家其实也都是期望国产桌游能慢慢发展起来。相对来讲，永恒之轮的商家看起来在团队实力和资金支持方面不错，如果能坚持探索的话，还是有希望推出更好的产品的。

先休息了……新年快乐！

psychokiller

本帖最后由 psychokiller 于 2011-1-1 02:21 编辑

uriah 发表于 2011-1-1 02:15
“. Coming Summer 2010, hoping for a July release, with an expansion in the fall”

笔误？

好吧
那這款
雖然是給小孩子玩的非競技CCG
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/87876/oz-collectible-card-game
Over 100 years ago L. Frank Baum introduced the world to the wondrous Land of Oz. Now, experience these familiar characters, fantastic locations, and disturbing creatures as never before imagined.
OZ Collectible Card Game utilizes an innovative new game system we call Storyline that adds strategy to your challenging and fun adventures through Oz.
This game can be played with 2 or more players. We'll explain a 2-player game here. (Two demo decks and instructions all in PDF formats can be downloaded from our home page at http://www.orionsbell.com )
OBJECT: To navigate one of your Characters through a randomized OZ Story Line until it reaches "THE END" before your opponent(s).
SET UP: Players start with a library of at least 40 cards (no maximum). Each players also has 4 Location cards face down on the table in front of them. Taking turns, you and your opponent move each others Location cards (keeping them face-down) to form a Story Line between you, starting from the center and always adding your opponent's cards to your right of the Story Line. You should end up with a line of face-down Locations end-to-end with your four locations on the left half of the Story Line and your opponent's on the right. Each of you then cap off the Story Line with a Title card on your left. As you play the game and cards are taken out of play (archived) they will form a pile called your Archive.
BEGINNING PLAY: By whatever means agreed upon (flipping a coin, rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock, etc.) players should choose who goes first. Each players then draws five cards from the top of their library into their hand. If you don't like your hand, put the cards back into your library re-shuffle and draw 5 cards again. You can do this two times.
STEPS OF TURN: There are 6 steps to a turn:
Move • Draw • Play • Challenge • Play • Move
Steps must be performed in the above order. The only step required during a turn is at least one Move if possible (It does help move the game along).
Move: Move one Character you control (on your side of the Story Line) one Location to your right. If the Location is face-down, turn it face-up. These are the only steps in a turn in which you can win the game. You may only move a Character to your opponent's Title card and flip it to "The End" during a Move step of your turn. At least one move must be made if possible during each turn. Character only move from left to right.
Draw: Draw a card from the top of your library and add it to your hand. The maximum hand size is 7 cards. At the end of your turn, if you have more than 7 cards in your hand, you must discard enough cards to your Archive to leave you with 7 cards in your hand.
Play: You have a variety of choices during this step...
1) Play a card from your hand to the Story Line. (Refer to how each type of card is played in the sections below.)
2) Archive a card you control from the Story Line.
3) Discard a card from your hand to your Archive.
Challenge: A Challenge can only be called when both players have Characters in play at the same Location. The player calling the Challenge adds up the total Strength of all their Characters at the Location and the defending player adds up the total Skill of all their Characters at the Location.
The victor of the Challenge is the player with the higher number. If both players have the same total, the Challenge ends in a draw and nothing happens.
The loser of the Challenge must then calculate the difference between the two totals. The loser must then archive that many Characters from the Characters they control at the Location, starting with the Character with the lowest Strength and progressing up to their strongest Character at the Location. If two or more Characters have the same Strength, the victor may choose which Character archived first.
WINNING THE GAME: During a Move step of their turn, the first player who successfully move a Character they control to their opponent's Title card and flips it to read "The End" wins the game.
YOUNGER PLAYERS: Younger players can choose to use only 3 Location each in their Story Line. They may also want to play using only Characters to help make the game less complex.
THE CARDS
Characters: Characters are first played to you Title card capping the Story Line on your left. Characters whose Skill and Strength both become less that zero must be immediately archived. Character with Keywords "Minor", Historic", or "Illusion" can not be used to win the game. Characters with the keyword "Flying" are not affected by movement restrictions. Object Characters can not be affected by, nor equipped with any Food Objects.
Objects: Objects can be played to any face-up Location and/or equipped to a Character. If an Object is left at a Location without any Characters you control, your opponent may take control of the Object by moving to their side of the Story Line. (Object Characters are not so affected). Character may carry an Object from one Location to another is they have the required Strength. Characters can benefit from the effects of an Object if they have the required Skill.
Magical Cards and Magic: Magical cards are printed with cold foil accents. Some magical cards may have an added ability or requirement of Magic. (There won't be any foiled chaser cards since foil is used to distinguish a type of card.)
Effects: Effects may only be played during a Play step of your turn.
Events: Events may be played at any time during the game.
Spells: Like Objects, Spells may have a Strength and/or Skill requirement as well as a Magic requirement that a Character you control must meet. Spells generally require a Caster (a Character with the Strength, Skill, and Magic requirements) to be at the same Location the Spell is Played.
Locations: Locations make up the Story Line. The game text of a Location only affects cards currently at the specific Location. Players may only have one copy in their select of Locations at the beginning of the game. Players are allowed to their own copy of the same Location at the beginning of the game. Location are controlled by a player when they turn it face-up and the name and game text are right side up to the player. When a player turns a Location face-up, they may choose to control the Location or give control to their opponent regardless of who's Location it was during the set-up of the game. Title Cards are not Locations.
A BIT ABOUT DESIGNING THE GAME:
This game and future expansions are based on the OZ books by L. Frank Baum. Unlike MTG and other CCGs that design the game play of cards and sets first, then create the back story to fit the play mechanics, I sat down and chose things from the books that would make interesting cards and then created the card mechanics based on what happens in the book. This does lead to things that may be out of balance between Characters, lands, etc. but stays true to the flavor of the books.
As I stated before, you can download two demo decks and instructions at http://www.orionsbell.com/

psychokiller

uriah 发表于 2011-1-1 02:15
“. Coming Summer 2010, hoping for a July release, with an expansion in the fall”

笔误？

“. Coming Summer 2010, hoping for a July release, with an expansion in the fall”
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Greetings all. After a great deal of discussion around the office and looking at our amazing upcoming game lines this year, we have decided that the best opportunity for Phase to succeed will require moving back its release date. We have a very busy 2010, featuring Dust Tactics, The City-State of Tempest, Tomb of Iuchiban, Thunderstone expansions, and more.
For Phase to get all the attention it requires will mean moving the release to early 2011. We know this will be a disappointment for some who were looking forward to the release, but we want Phase to be a hit, and that's going to require our full attention. So, we hope you'll enjoy our other new games through the rest of this year and we'll see you with Phase in early 2011!

From publisher

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