【翻译】历史巨轮（TTA）只有一个方法赢得游戏吗？

Sherlockhlt

本帖最后由 Sherlockhlt 于 2011-5-8 22:20 编辑

玩这游戏前我觉得TTA是复杂版波多，玩了几次发觉波多有建筑流，运输流，生产流和随机应变流，但TTA几乎只有军事科技流。。听说还有殖民流但还没见过，倒是军事强的殖民地自然就多了。这篇文是在bgg上看到的，和我有一样的困惑。回复主要是说军事不能落后咯，不重视科技就是不重视文化就是不重视资源科技食物。{:4_155:}

原文http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/454149/only-one-way-to-win-this-game/page/1

我玩这个游戏4次了但胜利者总是走军事科技流。文化直到最后才有作用。军事领先的总是以20+的军力发动战争，这足以抹杀两个世纪的文化努力甚至毁掉整个文明了。
Is there only one way to win this game? I've played this game 4 times now and the winner has ALWAYS been the person
who pushed military and tech the most. Culture is irrelevant until the game is over. The military leader always instigates wars that are won with a 20+ Str advantage. This either wipes out 2 Age's worth of culture lead (Culture War) or decimates an entire civilization (loss of 7 pop via Holy War) and the game is soon over.
我发现Age III 战术 + 空军 + 拿破仑可以在一轮加20+的军力。空军总是一上来就被抢。所以如果你有Age III 战术 + 拿破仑,你一看见空军就立刻发动战争，拿空军，发展并建立空军，游戏就试算结束咯。你已经以20+军力赢得了那场战争并赢得比赛。不用理会文化分数是多少因为因为40分领先是不可能输的。（最后一句看不懂j就不翻译了。- - |||）We've found that with Age III tactics cards, Air Force tech and Napolean, that you can add 20+ points to your Str total in a single turn. Air Force is ALWAYS taken as soon as it hits the board (for 3 CAs). So if you have an Age III tactic card in play and Napolean, you declare war as soon as you see it, grab AF, discover it and build it. Game over. You've just won the war by 20+ Str and won the game. Doesn't matter what the culture score is because that player's not going to be behind by 40 points. And if he is, you a Holy War or other aggressions cards to destroy his infrastructure and the end is very near.
因此，我们圈的人一看到实验室，军事科技，拿破仑和空军就以3 内政抢下来。既然东西一到就被抢那么这是谁抢到什么的无趣尝试了.（这句乱翻译的，a crap shoot 不知道是什么东东）At this point, everyone in our group knows all this and every lab, military tech, Napolean and Air Force is grabbed as soon as it hits the board, for 3 CAs. So its a crap shoot who gets what since its grabbed as soon as it hits the board.
在我们的四次游戏中，AgeII文化领先50+的最后总是输，一般是Mich/Basilica或者库克/殖民流玩家。赢家总是那个文化落后40+但科技资源好并一看见军事科技/领导就抢的人。
In the four games we've played, the culture leader after Age II, with up to a 50 pt lead, has ALWAYS lost. That would be the Mich/Basilica or Cook/colony player in most cases. The winner has ALWAYS been the guy down by 40+ culture but with a good engine for Sci and resources who grabs every military tech/leader in sight.
这游戏在BGG排名第5，所以我很困惑。在这点我觉得这游戏不值得玩，你简直可以扔个骰子看谁赢，而这竟然要花8个小时总会让人厌烦。我们缺失了什么？{:4_182:}
This game is rated #5 on BGG so I'm a bit confused. At this point, I find the game unplayable, you might as well roll a die to see who wins. And that's frustrating after 8 hrs of play (we are a slow group). What are we missing?

lls330

额占楼看贴

Sherlockhlt

第一次发帖，错别字不少呃。。

爱飞张的张飞

我想看bgg楼下回复

Sherlockhlt

一个比较老的玩家的回复，大意是发展文化同时军事什么的不能落后，然后如果大家都升级政府，那么第三纪就会过得很快，拿破仑就来不及获利。

It's actually been a long time in my games since the Napoleon player has won. Actually... I guess the guy who took Napoleon 4 games ago ended up winning, but not because he used Nap to win any wars. He just used him defensively.

Now, there is some groupthink that goes into this. I don't play with many out-and-out hawks. But I don't play with doves either, and there's no reason why the "Michelangelo player" or the "Cook player" can't keep a respectable military at the same time (at least powerful enough to convince Napoleon to attack someone else). The main thing that makes those two leaders so powerful is that they can make you lots of culture on the side--that is, coincidentally to your strategy, without the need to change your play so as to take advantage of them. In most games it's better to settle for 4-6 points per turn from Michelangelo or Cook, and pay attention to the rest of your infrastructure too, than it is to try to maximize the leader's benefit.
And here's a thought: maybe your Age III is going extra-slow because of all the "must-have" cards people are grabbing for 3 civil actions each. When everyone has upgraded **s, Age III can fly by, and when Age III is gone, Napoleon is gone. I've had him die before my war can be resolved--or decided not to launch the war in the first place because I knew that was going to happen--a lot more often than he's won big for me.

ggaruda

这也是一直困扰我这个tta新手的问题啊

fslocalking

有不懂的新手，跟我单挑几盘，你就懂写这篇文章的人没有注重到哪些关键细节......{:4_113:}

围城

显然作者没去F14平台上玩,哎,真可惜

KrisChen

-显然没去F14上玩过............

taefiend

本帖最后由 taefiend 于 2011-5-11 14:15 编辑

写这种文章的显然肉手。和自己的一个圈子玩久了，彼此之间养成了难以修改的陈规就以为游戏就是这样了。实在有些天真得可爱。

看到什么军事的东西就以3内政拿，其必然导致科技、生产力、人口方面的基础建设出现问题。只要别人的基础建设好，等到你空军+阵型+拿破仑一套齐了，别人早建立好刷分机制然后码军力和你对抗了。军事流在3、4人局里根本就是孤注一掷，只要保证最弱的玩家不特别弱，稍微用外交牌拉一把，军事流就非常危险。

作者所谓的2阶前就开始刷分的玩家也太肉脚了。撇开几张事情牌都是针对前期分数领先的玩家不说，单问一句，前期就发展文化那基础建设还要不要了？2阶就领先50分简直就是自寻死路。

退开一万步说，稍微几个会玩的，把2阶拉长，埋下破除偶像，拿破仑的军事流就被破了。

还有，所谓军事强殖民地就必然多也是有前提条件的。一般来说2阶开始有计划建立刷分机制的玩家，看到有军事流玩家的雏形，就可以有计划地卡农业和生产力科技，然后埋除了增加人口和粮食以外的殖民地进事件。出了殖民地就用小战力逼迫高战力的玩家死兵，拖延他的军事建设。

両義式

我个人比较喜欢走文化和科技的路线,军事不是特别重视但也别太落后,胜率还过得去- -

b31o41

本帖最后由 b31o41 于 2011-5-14 02:53 编辑

1楼的翻译给写这篇文章的人。要他去F14平台玩几盘。遍知道。其他的解释都是浮云

其实4人游戏，军力强是浮云。因为每个人都有可能超过你的文化分。

军事流只适合2到3人

captaingon

真有那跑的快的，让你随便打，都能跑赢你。。。

狐狸狸

拿破仑固然强，也要你拿得到阵型的啊。。。

TTA这个游戏两人局变化都很多的。。作者不能这么一叶障目啊。。。

菜鸟狐飘远

etckevc

纠正下：

什么策略看人数，举例说3人的话，你军事强也不能随便去打仗，因为如果打的不好，被第三人就偷鸡占便宜了。
总体来说，TTA确实是军事＋科技是主线，特别是军事，俗称拿古空，就是你拿到拿破仑＋古典阵型＋空军，基本游戏就没悬念了，发动个战争一次打到位，对方可能连人口或者所有建筑全部都死光。。。。
殖民地，其实就是那几个有人的殖民地比较好，其他几个太高成本去拿都没意思，除非手上很多殖民牌。

总体TTA游戏本身还是不错的

legolasfeng

对于新手来说跟楼主有一样的困惑帮顶一下看看其他大神还有些啥意见

周鱼

游戏规则有一条：“体面的退出游戏”

当你的战争让一个对手注定无法赢得胜利的时候，他会毫不犹豫的在自己的回合“体面的”退出游戏而让你的战争放空枪。

梦者

科技流的鸽派菜鸟飘过。

dounrule

fslocalking 发表于 2011-5-9 08:48
有不懂的新手，跟我单挑几盘，你就懂写这篇文章的人没有注重到哪些关键细节...... ...

求单挑加教学啊，现在这游戏跑完了简单模式，跑高级模式被复杂的说明书搞的最后掀桌了

dounrule

周鱼发表于 2011-6-2 11:13
游戏规则有一条：“体面的退出游戏”

当你的战争让一个对手注定无法赢得胜利的时候，他会毫不犹豫的在自己 ...

是指掀桌么？哈哈哈